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Audio advice from a frustrated boom op (20 posts)

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  • Avatar Image numballover said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    I hope this post comes out informative, but there is a high risk that it will turn into a rant. I’ve been very frustrated lately that I’ve been working with multiple directors, DPs, and producers lately all of which have been in the industry for over 15 years…and yet still know absolutely nothing about the world of sound. So I’d like to clear up some misconceptions.

    It isn’t the microphone its what we do with it I’d bet on this forum you’d find quite a few posts asking “What is a good shotgun mic for $xxx.xx?”. It’s important to realize that good sound is only about 20% about the microphone, and 80% about where you put it. Strap a $2000 schoeps CMIT 5U onto your camera and it won’t sound any better than the on camera mic. A boom op with good technique could make a cheap Rode mic sound better.

    Wireless lavaliers are a crutch Sound mixers will tell you that wireless lavaliers don’t sound as good as the boom. To an extent that is true…but truthfully lavaliers do sound pretty good. The difference is they sound much less natural because they don’t catch the inherent reverb and ambiance of the room. They are also have more bass because they are seated right next to the actors chest.

    Like all gear, there is a time and place for wireless lavaliers. Extremely wide shots with lots of headroom are a great example. In these shots the boom would be too far to get good sound. Secondly, the actors are far enough away that if something happens to the audio (such as a wireless dropout or RF hit), its easy for the dialogue editor to sneak in a track from a different take or angle and cover up the mistake.

    However, many directors and DP’s use lavaliers as a crutch for their poorly designed, poorly lit scenes. A well blocked properly lit scene is almost always easy to capture on the boom. Wireless lavaliers are for reality TV…real movies should be mostly about the boom.

    Lavaliers are not some magical sound voodoo (but you’d swear DPs think they are). They have serious limitations. They pick up the sound of the clothing, if the actor sweats they will sometimes fall out of place, they are both fragile and expensive, and they are also very sensitive to radio frequencies.

    We don’t use one microphone Many new filmmakers ask “What mic do you use?”. We don’t use just one type of microphone. Microphones are like lenses. Different microphones work great for different situations. For example, our audio kit consists of: Senhessier 416, AKG 480BCK-69, AKG 480BCK-63, Sanken CS3e, Schoeps CMC MK41, 1 x Oktava mk012a.

    Etiquette – This is a personal thing, and I may be wrong on this. When you hire a sound person, trust their advice. You are paying good money for it after all.

    When someone tells me to throw a lav on someone, I take it as an insult. I have been hired to give you good sound…if the lavalier was necessary or helpful then I would have put it. It also suggests you don’t think I can boom the shot, which is also insulting. You wouldn’t tell the DP, “Hey, why don’t you throw an LED light on her just in case”. Most good DPs would not appreciate that sort of comment. Trust that I know my job enough to know when it will do more harm than good.

    For example, I did a scene where a girl ran out of a house and had a huge emotional breakdown, screamed, and rolled around on the ground. In general, when people start crawling around on the ground, the lavs sound like crap and they have a high risk of being seen..and given her tight wardrobe it was almost guaranteed to happen. But the director insisted that a lavalier be placed…and so in the next shot, as predicted the lavalier (which was sounding like crap anyways) fell out and ruined the shot (a shot which sounded great on the boom by the way).

    In general, I will put wires on all the actors for every scene. If I haven’t put one there is usually a good reason. Sometimes its like the reason above. Other times its because the actors asked if me if we could go without it. Many actors don’t like to get wired, or at the very least have bad days where they don’t feel like worrying about twenty people on set listening to their private conversations all day.

    Sometimes I am so sure that this is an easy scene to boom that I will tell the actor “Sure I can get the scene on the boom, no problem”. When you tell me to lavalier them for no good reason, you have frustrated them, me, and also hurt our working relationship.

    Sometimes its because they are crazy people who might break it

    Yes we can hear that – If you can hear a sound with your ears, then yes we can hear it on the mics. However, that does not necessarily mean it will ruin your sound. In general constant noises like hums, or high pitched ringing can be taken out in post. That isn’t to say you shouldn’t try to eliminate these noises…but if that isn’t practical then trust your sound person if they tell you it is ok.

    Secondly, a good sound team will know how to pick the right microphones to reduce the problem as much as possible. Certain mics are great for rooms that echo, and others are good for reducing hum(provided the boom op knows what he’s doing).

    No furniture pads Whoever called those damn things sound blankets did us sound guys a great disservice. People think they can throw them over things like air conditioner units, or in front of coolers and it will get rid of the noise. It might work…if you layer it about 8 feet thick. These things have zero acoustic insulation…they won’t do anything.

    The only function they really have in the sound world is to throw on the ground as a quick and dirty means of quieting the sounds of footsteps (especially high heels).

    We can’t save you from yourself When you scout locations, make sure to keep your ears open. Lately, I’ve been beginning to suspect that directors scout locations with their ipods on. I’ve done two page dialogue scenes next to active construction sights, inside crowded restaurants, and once even in a fish processing plant. Those scenes were ADR’d at great expense.

    Recently, I worked on a film that had a scene inside an arcade. The owner refused to let the production lock the location, so we had to shoot in it as a live location. There were bells, whistles, ten different songs from different machines, and about forty screaming brats running in every direction. In the middle of the first shot, the following conversation took place:

    DIRECTOR (yelling because its too loud to even talk in this place): I can’t hear them.
    Me: I know…its like 98db in here. If an airplane took off we might not hear it.
    DIRECTOR: I don’t want to have to dub this scene
    Me: But you have to…there is no way not to.
    DIRECTOR: Are they wired?
    Me (trying not to lose my temper): He is but the little girl isn’t
    DIRECTOR: Well, how about you throw a lav on her…

    Understand this…we can’t fix the sound any more than the DP can move a 20ft tall tree that is blocking a beautiful wide shot. If the sound is fucked…its fucked…and the last thing that will save it is a lavalier.

    We are there to record what is there in the cleanest most pristine manner possible. If the location sounds like a 747 taking off then a good sound mixer will get a very solid track of a 747 taking off…so try not to stage a four page scene there. Getting good sound starts in preproduction when you are choosing your locations.

  • Avatar Image 8thSamurai said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    Amen.

    I’ve tweaked the lighting on scenes to make them more comfortable to boom (lately, a conversation just between myself and audio, for these very types of reasons).

  • Avatar Image mikeman83 said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    Numb, great post. Not ranty at all, just a really nice slice of life. I’ve seen quite a few short films that look great but the sound was for shit. WTF, if you’re gonna make a great meal shouldn’t all the ingredients be the absolute best?!

    We are shooting a short the end of August and we made another trip out to the location (100 miles east of LA) just to check the sound. Sorry to report that we brought a wireless Lav, but we’re shooting 2 guys (in a towed 1947 pick-up) Any thoughts you can share about getting the best sound will be received with open ears.

    Cheers

  • Avatar Image numballover said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    @mikeman83 said:
    Numb, great post. Not ranty at all, just a really nice slice of life. I’ve seen quite a few short films that look great but the sound was for shit. WTF, if you’re gonna make a great meal shouldn’t all the ingredients be the absolute best?!

    We are shooting a short the end of August and we made another trip out to the location (100 miles east of LA) just to check the sound. Sorry to report that we brought a wireless Lav, but we’re shooting 2 guys (in a towed 1947 pick-up) Any thoughts you can share about getting the best sound will be received with open ears.

    Cheers

    Nothing wrong with lavs, and every good mixer should have quite a few in the kit. A lavalier set up is always good in the right situation, and the situation you described is something that lavaliers are usually a more than acceptable solution.

    In fact, I’ve done multiple car rigs where I simply position two lavaliers in the overhead visor secured with some gaff tape. That is usually my default car rig.

    When you say ‘towed’ I assume you mean that you are doing something of a poor mans process trailer…so the camera crew is in the car doing the towing. If this is the case you may be able to run a hard-wire snake into the truck and place a boom microphone. It is typically pretty difficult to run the wire so that it won’t be seen with the mic overhead, so its usually better to get a small mic stand – like those used for kick drums – and place the microphone on the floor with some sandbags to secure it.

    For this we use a cardioid microphone with a goose neck, an Earthworks CP30.. If you don’t have a cardioid mic, then a hyper is your next best bet.

    Examples of bad lavalier usage I’d like to clarify what I mean by poorly designed scenes. As a general rule of thumb, interior dialogue scenes that have more than half a page of talking should have at least one shot that can be carried on the boom.

    You certainly can have a wide master with lots of headroom if you like, but do yourself a favor and punch in for coverage. It will give your dialogue editor something to work with.

    The worst thing you can do This is what has been happening to me for the past two months…which in large part has lead to this post. The bane of my existence…two cameras, one wide one tight.

    Let me explain the stupidity that I have been experiencing. We are shooting a two person dialogue scene. The logic is we are going to “save time” by shooting the wide master, and one of the close ups at the same time. 90% of the time by doing this you’ve completely screwed the sound on the close up, because where the boom needs to be is clearly in the frame of the wide shot.

    And maybe this would be ok if it were really saving you time. You could argue that its worth sacrificing sound quality if you save time. But the truth is you aren’t saving anything…because you still have to shoot the other close up
    !!

    Lets call our two actors Greg and Amy. So it goes like this:
    1) A-camera shoots wide master with both actors, B-camera shoots MCU of Greg…boom is screwed and both are carried on lavs.
    2) A-camera shoots MCU of Amy…and B-camera has no shot…so they usually just shoot a tighter shot of Amy…or they just sleep for the second shot. Amy is carried on the boom.
    RESULT: Good sound for Amy, bad sound for Greg’s CU.

    So you end up doing two set ups instead of three…but couldn’t you have just as easily done this:
    1) A-camera shoots wide master…B-camera sleeps
    2) A-camera shoots CU of Greg, B-camera shoots CU of Amy…use two booms or have the boom op swing back and forth.
    RESULT: Good sound on both, with the only con being it is slightly harder for the editor to find a good cut from the wide to the CU.

    In general, if you are shooting wide and tight on a dialogue scene, you are being sloppy and won’t be happy with the result once you get into post.

  • Avatar Image John P. Hess said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    I’m going to have to shave your analysis of not shooting two angles in the same direction. It depends really on how you play your cameras.

    If I wanted to start with a master shot situation with A camera on a wide I would put B-camera can be doing something like picking up miscellaneous odd movements to give some sort of coverage options. In my preference, I would have the B-camera avoiding lips and face because I want coverage that can be slipped in anywhere. To me, there’s no real reason to ever have a camera sleep. Sound will be what it is, but my style demands medium or cu for any important dialogue.

    Then I would move in to do Medium/CU for each actor with A-camera shooting Medium, and B-camera shooting a CU or Extreme CU.

    In every situation where I’ve shot medium/CU coverage with two cameras I have been extremely happy with the results and it does cut down the set time tremendously (by at least half). And the medium shot usually leaves enough room for the boom mic to be in a comfortable position.

    I can understand your point about wide/cu being hard to capture sound – especially if they’re trying to eliminate one setup (should be minimal of three for that setting – master, and angle on for each actor).

    Now what I would recommend highly against is shooting opposing angles. With opposing angles you are locked down to the “reality” of your set. The spatial relationship between actors is set in stone and you’re not allowed to cheat like you can when shooting two angles separately. Not to mention the lighting concerns you get into when shooting in two directions.

  • Avatar Image Pavol Timko said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    Great thread, I’ve learned a lot again. As I read it, I came to conclusion that we talk about PRO scene here. Every industry has a “must do’s” and “don’t’s” and it is clear that sound is an area with lot of know how directors must know about but still they should stick to a pro on the set to get the best results.
    But what about amateur and semi pro environment with tight or no budget? With an amateur boom op you may have another possible weak link which can ruin a shot or even the whole result. Thus directors may try to improvise and try to overcame a fact that no sound pro is available for their production. In such cases a lav may be a sort of compromise or what would be a recommendation for situations like this?
    I believe there may be many hobby or aspiring cinematographers reading this forum and what would you say to them? Already the posts written above where a sort of eyes openers but would you add some advice on what to do in a tight budget situations?
    If there is no boom op at all, would it be better to use a lav or stick to a RODE Videomic type of solution attached to cameras? Or would you insist on grabbing some boom op with no experience and try to do the job even if he will stay in the way sometimes and ruin few shots?

  • Avatar Image numballover said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    @John – I don’t mind doing a medium and CU at the same time. The main issue is headroom. If you do two shots with vastly different headroom you are screwing the sound on the tighter shot. I disagree with you on opposing angles. I love cross coverage. In terms of lighting, I am the type of person who when I have the DP hat on…I like to light the scene and not the shot. The only time I find it to be more difficult is when you are in a very small location.

    @Pavol – An amateur boom op can be fine so long as at least study the craft a bit and shots are on the easy side. Let me give you a run down of the sort of things that make the boom ops job difficult.
    1) Multiple cameras. If you are paying for more than one camera, why can’t you afford a professional boom?
    2) Hard lighting, especially from the top or front. A professional boom op is always aware of every shadow being cast onto the scene.
    3) More than three characters in the scene with alot of movement. A professional will memorize the lines of the scene and be in the right place at the right time.
    4) Outdoor wideshots. Eg. A rookie boom op won’t be able to hold a pole full 18ft extension with a full wind protection blimp for more than a few minutes. It takes both technique and training to do long takes.
    5) Indoor low angle wides that see the ceiling. These shots require a bit of finesse in terms of how you angle your boom.
    6.) The type of mic you use. A rookie is going to have a much easier time with a hyper-cardioid than a shotgun…especially a cheap shotgun. The reason is a shotgun has a very narrow acceptance angle…so if they directly in the right spot it will sound off. A hyper is much more forgiving (but also will be a bit too wide for exteriors).

    If there is no boom op at all, then yes a lavalier is better. Attaching a mic to the camera does very little. It’s not about the microphone its about where it is positioned in relation to the person speaking. The fact is on camera mics are usually high quality microphones…but on a typical shot they are five, eight, or sometimes twenty feet from the person speaking. In an ideal world you want the microphone within 12 inches of the person speaking. On a sound stage you can get away with a little more.

    That being said, I don’t recommend doing a film without a boom unless it is very very light on dialogue, or you intend to ADR the whole thing in post. Bad sound is unacceptable. Audiences will not watch something with bad sound for more than thirty seconds.

    Being from the sound world I’m obviously biased…but take a recently very successful feature – Monsters. They say the budget of that film was $15,000 (I suspect it was actually more like $40,000…they like to lie about those things.) The only person they paid was the sound guy.

    Everyone gets into the film industry because they fell in love with making pretty pictures. So that’s how you get these weird situations where people are willing to spend thousands on multiple cameras, name actors, dollies, jibs, etc…but there isn’t money in the budget for a boom op. But try to remember…The rest of the world watches movies because they want to hear actors talk.

  • Avatar Image Pavol Timko said 10 months, 4 weeks ago:

    Great stuff. I am very thankful!

  • Avatar Image mikeman83 said 10 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Really appreciate your insight. Love the placement on the visor instead of the actor and we will definitely look into the other options you listed. It’s refreshing to hear from someone who is passionate about his craft and willing to share it in an informative and direct way.

    We’re using a a front end tow dolly, a single camera, hostess trays and hood mount for the shoot and yes some from our poor mans process trailer. We very much intend to rent a boom and use it for the few pages we have for the exterior stuff.

    Again, many thanks!

  • Avatar Image Madison Paige said 10 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Great stuff! Thanks for posting this. I’ve shared this thread on my Facebook page and some of my groups there. Good stuff.

    Be Excellent.
  • Avatar Image Eric said 10 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Nice stuff. A role that is all too often left out. I would like to point out that you should not toss aside the use of furnie pads. Although they are useless for eliminating noise, they are great for deadening an overly live space. Also are good for setting up an impromtu wild sound / VO recording space. Tag to the the walls in a corder and place the mike so the actor is facing into the corner. Not as good as a studio but works in a pinch.

    “Just put double in it. Let’s shoot this f***** and go home”
  • Avatar Image numballover said 10 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @Eric said:
    Nice stuff. A role that is all too often left out. I would like to point out that you should not toss aside the use of furnie pads. Although they are useless for eliminating noise, they are great for deadening an overly live space. Also are good for setting up an impromtu wild sound / VO recording space. Tag to the the walls in a corder and place the mike so the actor is facing into the corner. Not as good as a studio but works in a pinch.

    Even still the effect is pretty marginal. Unless you really pile them on you probably won’t do much to any frequencies under 14khz. To really make an effect you’d need thick carpeting, or you’d need something with lots of angles to scatter the sound (once again this will mostly affect high frequencies only).

    As a test, throw a furniture pad over your head. You’ll find that it has almost no effect on how you hear things around you.

    Microphone choice is more crucial here than anything. Figure out where the reflections are coming from and pick a microphone that helps to reject the reflections. Counter intuitively, in most cases this is a hyper or cardioid mic.

    In some cases though you may not want to kill the reflection, especially if the room has a look that justifies it (such as very large open federal courthouse hallway).

  • Avatar Image Rita Rallemos said 10 months, 3 weeks ago:

    As a newbie filmmaker, I am reminded why I joined this site. It’s great getting advice and techniques from the experienced.

  • Avatar Image RandyV13 said 9 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Having seen “Monsters,” I don’t know what they paid the sound guy, but they should have invested some of it in a writer.

    Also, excellent thread. Maybe somebody can explain this: when I see indie films, shorts, etc., even when the visuals are great, the sound is often very tinny and full of reverb like it was recorded in a public restroom. Why? I know lavs aren’t the great problem solver, but is this something a lav would eliminate because of the proximity to the actor? It seems like a boom that picks up more of the natural reverb (which is usually desirable I guess) and ambient sound might actually be a problem. Based on the rest of this thread, I’m apparently wrong, but can you please explain? Thanks in advance.

  • Avatar Image numballover said 9 months, 2 weeks ago:

    @randyv13 said:
    Having seen “Monsters,” I don’t know what they paid the sound guy, but they should have invested some of it in a writer.

    Also, excellent thread. Maybe somebody can explain this: when I see indie films, shorts, etc., even when the visuals are great, the sound is often very tinny and full of reverb like it was recorded in a public restroom. Why? I know lavs aren’t the great problem solver, but is this something a lav would eliminate because of the proximity to the actor? It seems like a boom that picks up more of the natural reverb (which is usually desirable I guess) and ambient sound might actually be a problem. Based on the rest of this thread, I’m apparently wrong, but can you please explain? Thanks in advance.

    In a rare case that is actually true. Usually this is in rooms with high ceilings and marble walls or floors. In other words, rooms that have extreme echos. And even then only specific lavaliers are good. Where a tram TR50 might perform better than a boom, a Cos-11d won’t be much better.

    However, the sound you are referring to is more often than not because the boom isn’t in the right spot. This could be the boom operators fault, or the DP’s fault. A bad boom op won’t be aggressive enough, and will keep the boom too far from the actor. But sometimes due to hard front lighting, top lights, or wacky framing it is impossible for even the best boom op to get the mic in place.