Damnit Jim – I’m a Filmmaker not a RED Camera Propagandist
No camera on the market today sparks as much fan boy bullshit spirited debate as the RED line of digital cinema cameras. Now I present you latest dust-up between RED camera pioneer Jim Jannard and Zacuto’s Steve Weiss.
And, yes I realized the level of this discourse can get a little… well nauseating. So I’ve done my best to illustrate the argument in the popular art form of the day.
Jim Jannard, founder of the Red Camera Company fired off an angry post on REDUSER.net aimed at Steve Weiss of Zacuto and their latest “Great Camera Shootout” (previous versions can be seen here and here). Apparently Jim Jannard is pretty butt hurt upset that tests will be shown in 2K and that he didn’t get to control the post processing.
Steve Weiss did respond with a pretty complete explanation as to why the tests were finished in 2k. Basically because the vast vast majority of theaters today present in 2k and they really didn’t have the resources to present these in 4K. And let’s face, most people are going to watch it on Vimeo.
But that wasn’t enough for Jim.
Ignoring Steve’s earlier message, Jim resurrected the ghost of Shakespeare for his next post:
Zacuto… Zacuto… where art thou?
Jim
And that’s when Steve had enough…
Thou are here Jim.
I’m not sure what you are asking of me? I really don’t want to embarrass anyone but I did invite every manufacturer, including you and Ted, I sent the email to you several times, … Where art thou Jim? Further, I sent you the same letter for the 2011 shootout, as well with no response. I “begged” you for the EPIC in 2011 which you started delivering 2 weeks after the shoot, so there were obviously cameras available. I caught a lot of flack about that from your fans/users as well because the EPIC was not included.
Frankly, I make documentaries, not propaganda films. For those that don’t understand the difference, I as the filmmaker have no idea what the outcome of my film is till it’s finished (unlike a Michael Moore film, where the end is determined first and the shoot is just there to prove its case). Wow, your fans/users are very beholden to you, it’s almost like they would join the EPIC military and fight to the death for its honor, that’s cool, no other camera company has that kind of support…. you have created a wonderful camera, congratulations but to me and many of the DP’s in my film and guest DP’s interviewed, it’s just a tool like lights and tripods. It all has to work together. I rely on my crew, much more then my gear. If I had your amazing camera and put it on a lousy tripod and all of my pans and tilts sucked, to me it wouldn’t matter, the overall film would suck.
Okay, now all that gossipy nonsense was just to get this part. This is the reason I even thought this was post-worthy (aside from the title).
Spoiler alert, these are the kinds of comments you will hear in my film: I asked 9 ASC cinematographers, if they had to pick between shitty picture or shitty sound what would they recommend to the director if in the situation you could only have one? Every single cinematographer said shitty picture. There reason: You can tolerate shitty picture but shitty sound is intolerable.
I asked a cinematographer if he would be willing to live with a take where the actor didn’t hit his mark and isn’t in their eye light but the performance was better then when they hit their mark and his answer was an astounding yes.
This is what DP’s in a collaborative effort do and I felt it was important for people to hear this as well as well as see what camera are capable of…. If all you want to see is a raw test, they are out there, although, I’m not sure how fair and accurate they are. My film is the hows and whys of how to make your camera look great, plus a lot more. Actually, to be honest, I’m not totally sure what my film is yet because I haven’t even really started it prior to getting the comments from the screenings.
So… even the best DPs around the world would sacrifice image quality for pretty much everything else that helps tell the story.
Steve sums it up nicely
We are talking about one camera vs. another. I hate to tell you that the differences are so slight at this point that all of this talk is kind of irrelevant. Yes, there are differences but it’s not huge and I think most of your won’t be able to guess which camera is which. That’s going to be the fun part. At a certain point, we are picking hairs, does it really matter at that point? The more interesting part is seeing how they went about shooting and lighting it and what the cheaper cameras need to do to try to catch up (I’m not saying they can) in this extremely challenging scene, even for film. At some points we are walking up to 2 feet from the screen to see the differences.
Jim and other manufactures have given you what you’ve been asking for. You got your tool and it rocks, your EPIC, Alexa, whatever. Sorry to say it’s all in your hands, lets see what you can do with it.
Frankly all this just made me more interested in Zacuto’s new shootout which will hit the interwebs on June 15th:
Addendum…
Apparently Jim has a change of heart.
Both of these companies sell overpriced gear, and need to get over themselves.
There is no such thing as overpriced gear if it thrives in an open market.
Well if you go with pure economic theory – there will always be people who see a product as overpriced and people that will see the product as underpriced.
The Romeo and Juliet quote, ‘O Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo?’ isn’t Juliet asking where Romeo is, she’s asking why is he named Romeo, i.e., why is he a Montague while she’s a Capulet.
Yes. Which is why Shakespeare would be making Rage Comics if he were alive today.
Jim can really be a child at times. I agree that both companies sell overpriced gear but that’s life. However, the childlike attitude is just ridiculous.
John this just made me even more excited also. I have a feeling Jim knows what’s up. RED has raw and pixels, but I bet the other cameras will take it out in low light, dynamic range, and other tests.
The differences are very slight and what the last shootout showed was it comes down to taste. Some preferred how one camera rendered colors over others. It comes down to taste. Therefore, don’t be scared Jim.
That’s exactly right. Mr. Osborne, it’s personal preference, ergonomics, cost, look, many things but like why we have a million different brands of cars on the streets, it’s choice.
I find the differences significant and I don’t think the Epic is overpriced. It’s not for hobbyist unless your some rich dilettante. Most of us who buy it, rent it to our clients anywhere from 1500-2500/day depending on the glass. We’ve been using ours since February and it’s a few more jobs from being paid off. But are the differences between other camera insignificant? I think the better highlight latitude and ergonomics of an Alexa are noticeable and effect the way I work. If I had the money I’d have chose that. I goes beyond test but objective realities. One has more range and balances like a news camera. And to be honest 2k or 4k doesn’t really make a practical difference.
I think what’s interesting about this shootout is it may be designed to show how DPs work with their camera’s “limitations” and pull the best image out of them.
I think the shoot out was an excellent and comprehensive effort. He got DP’s of varying fields and experience to partake. His tests addressed a variety of typical challenges we run into. Truly a public service. I do wish RED had been a bit more enthusiastic about participating.
I own an Epic. I own some Zacuto parts. They both have their plusses and minuses. Epic captures a great picture but is an ergonomic nightmare (the Red 1 does hand held much better). Zacuto still hasn’t discovered ratcheting knobs, making their clamps the bane of any AC. But as a company, Zacuto is in a much higher league concerning humility and professionalism. Also, Jannard’s comments and design come from megalomaniac who is all but one thing – a DP. Steve Weiss makes a living from camera.
Did I mentioned I’ve been banned from Red User for life? Close to its released and spurred on by Red Users supposed mantra “Things Change, you can count it” or some silly excuse to miss deadlines, I made some valid criticisms of the Epic. I pointed out It’s yoke design for the touchscreen will limit its adjustability and asked why not just have 1/4″ holes top, bottom and sides, making its mounting options infinitely more flexible. Then I pointed out that being able to only plug just the EVF or the Touchscreen but not both, is fact that’s virtually hidden in the literature and will be a pain in the ass.
Sure enough I started Red Rage amongst the Fan Boys and Jannard piled in too. And about 30 replies later (none of them mine), Jannard and his disciple Jarrod banned me for life. It was at that moment that I felt I may be witnessing the birth of a new techno religion. I rue the day someone comes out with something better and cheaper.
A year later, the problems I pointed out are unanimously the biggest gripe Epic users have about the camera.
Hi Tim- Just an FYI, we are coming out with ratcheting levers real soon. Like weeks away, we had some at NAB we were showing. ~ Mandy from Zacuto
That is truly awesome. We I find it most necessary is when I’ve three or more items on my rails (MB, FF, Hands grips, etc). The non-ratcheting can get real tricky and finger busting especially with short lenses. Combine ratcheting with Z quality and it’ll be a winner with pros and ams alike.
Thanks.
I also wanted to mention I’ve been buying Z parts since the dawn of 35mm adaptors. What set them apart aside from quality was their quick response in terms of customer service and design suggestions. Truly a cameraman’s company. Only perhaps Nebtek is in their league regarding customers. They treat us as such instead of Moonies before the alter.
Oh I also wanted to add that despite my criticism of Zacuto’s clamps, Steve is man enough not to ban me from Zacuto, Jannard stated on Red Loser that the only way I’ll ever own an Epic is if I get someone to front for me. Childish, but a good idea nonetheless as I own one of his computers chips with a lens mount. That’s about how much thought went into the ergonomics. I think before he designs another camera he should DP a film himself, both a doc and a feature, on a film that can fire him at anytime, and you’ll see a change in direction.
BTW, Steve, we love everything else and thanks for taking the higher road.
That’s pathetic… what kind of company tells a customer that they can’t buy their product?
One that doesn’t like to be exposed.